The following is a transcription of a morning walk conversation with Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja in Hilo, Hawaii, on February 7, 2005

 

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I want that we follow varnāśrama-dharma*. Varnāśrama-dharma is of two kinds: daiva-varnāśrama** and smārta-varnāśrama.*** We reject smārta, but we follow daiva-varnāśrama – especially as established by Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī in his Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda also established it, as did our Gurudeva Śrīla Bhakti Prajñāna Keśava Mahārāja and Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja.

Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura would become very angry when he spoke about the smārta presentation of varnāśrama. He declared, “We should follow daiva-varnāśrama, but smārta varnāśrama-dharma should be ruined at once.”****

Are you in daiva-varnāśrama-dharma or are you out of it?

Devotee: I don’t know what the difference is between the first one and the second one. I thought we were supposed to be trying to get out of varnāśrama-dharma.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: All brahmacārīs, gṛhasthas, vānaprasthas and sannyāsīs are within varnāśrama. The āśramas are brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. We are all naturally part of varnāśrama, and we should, therefore, try to accept and very strongly follow its principles. Those who are married should be ideal gṛhasthas, following the instructions in Śrī Hari-bhakti-vilāsa. It is not that one may have two, three, four or five marriages. Be satisfied with one wife or husband, and don’t divorce. Remain together for your entire life. Then afterwards, in old age, if you have life, give up all entanglements and become absorbed in bhajana.

Brahmacārīs and sannyāsīs should hear hari-kathā; then they will automatically become detached. Why should a sannyāsī marry? He should never marry. And why should a vānaprastha marry again? Vānaprasthas should be very strict. They should try to progress gradually, not to go down. If a brahmacārī is going to marry, or if a vānaprastha gives up his old wife and wants a new one, it simply means that lust and so many anarthas are present in his heart and activities.

So try to advance. If you are gṛhastha, remain in that position and be ideal, like Śrīvāsa Paṇḍita, Śrī Advaita Ācārya, the Pāṇḍavas and many others like them. Be ideal; follow Hari-bhakti-vilāsa.

Varnāśrama-dharma is favourable when it assists in worshipping Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Guru and when it assists in developing bhakti; otherwise, it is unfavourable.

Devotee: Varnāśrama-dharma is not the goal because Mahāprabhu rejected it. He said it is only a platform.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: But the platform must come first. If even a sannyāsī is marrying, where is his platform for developing bhakti? If a brahmacārī is always independently going here and there, and a gṛhastha is remarrying and again remarrying, and within his marriage, he does not follow the scriptural principles of household life; this will not do. There should be a ground, a foundation, and that foundation should be very strong.

Rūpa Manohara dāsa: Isn’t it also that the varṇas (occupational duties) include kṣatriya, vaiśya, brāhmaṇa and śūdra as part of varnāśrama-dharma?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: This is not daiva-varnāśrama. Any śūdra, any person who eats cow meat and other forbidden things, any Mohammedan, Christian or Buddhist, can come and follow daiva-varnāśrama-dharma. At first, in the Śaṅkara-sampradāya and even in the Rāmānuja and Mādhva-sampradāyas, only a brāhmaṇa by birth could be given sannyāsa. But Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura introduced the understanding, and also the practice, that anyone can be given sannyāsa – not ladies, but all males can – whether they are śūdras, Mohammedan, outcasts, Christians or persons of any other religious faith, position, cultural or family background.***** They can all take sannyāsa.

Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī established this, and his followers have also established it. Otherwise, besides him, the members of our samāja (society) did not accept his understanding. He was very bold, and he boldly taught and acted according to the principles of daiva-varnāśrama. Thus, many smārta-brāhmaṇas opposed him.

Gopa-vrindapala dāsa: After Mahāprabhu and before Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura Prabhupāda, was there no varnāśrama in the Gauḍīya line?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: They used to wear paramahaṁsa-veśa, the dress of the paramahaṁsa. Paramahaṁsa is more than sannyāsa, but these people also rejected daiva-varnāśrama and its principles and became so-called paramahaṁsas.****** We are sannyāsīs. Even if we give someone bābājī-veśa (the dress and station of a bābājī), he is still in varnāśrama. An ordinary person cannot be a paramahaṁsa. Lord Nityānanda Prabhu******* and Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī********, who are real paramahaṁsas, are even allowed to be naked. Such pure devotees are beyond all rules and regulations, and they are even beyond the control of the Vedas.

Śrīpāda Padmanābha Mahārāja: If bābājī-veśa is still within varnāśrama, why are some persons given bābājī-veśa instead of sannyāsa?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Only because they cannot preach. Bābājī-veśa is allowed for those who cannot preach and for those who are not in knowledge of siddhānta (established philosophical conclusions). Sannyāsīs should know all siddhānta and preach throughout the world.

Regarding avadhūta-veśa, this is not given at all. Rather, it comes automatically. The pure devotee (avadhūta) may be naked or married; whatever he does or doesn’t do, there is no harm [because he is not under the rules and regulations of any injunction]. Nityānanda Prabhu was a paramahaṁsa (avadhūta) who married, and there was no harm. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa married thousands upon thousands of wives, but at the same time, He is the topmost paramahaṁsa.

* [“Human civilization begins from the stage of varṇāśrama-dharma, or specific duties in terms of the specific modes of nature of the body obtained. Discharging one’s specific duty in any field of action in accordance with the orders of higher authorities serves to elevate one to a higher status of life. (Bhagavad-gītā 2.31 purport)”]

** [Before coming to the standard of varṇāśrama-dharma there is no question of human civilization. Therefore, the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is trying to establish this right system of human civilization, which is known as Kṛṣṇa consciousness, or daiva-varṇāśrama – divine culture. (Science of Self-Realization, Chapter 3)]

[“The ācāryas who advocate the daiva-varṇāśrama (the social order of cātur-varṇyam mentioned in the Bhagavad-gītā) do not accept the proposition of āsura-varṇāśrama, which maintains that the social order of varṇa is indicated by birth.” (Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā 3.6 purport)]

*** [Yes. Striyo śūdrāḥ tathā vaiśyās (Bhagavad-gītā 9.32). This striyā, generally they take it, “Even she is prostitute,” striyā. Te ‘pi yānti parāṁ gatim: “They can also go back to home, back to Godhead.” Māṁ hi pārtha… If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa… Devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, “How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?” But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (Bhagavad-gītā 7.14). Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Kṛṣṇa says in another place, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (Bhagavad-gītā 18.66), “I’ll do immediately.” So māyā means pāpa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā. So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, “How a person born in other families, they can become brāhmaṇa?” (Śrīla Prabhupāda, Morning Walk, February 9, 1976)]

[“One can acquire the respective qualifications by one’s own efforts, and thus the son of a Vaiṣṇava can become a mleccha, or the son of a caṇḍāla can become more than a brāhmaṇa, all in terms of their association and intimate relation with the Supreme Lord.” (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.16.20 purport)]

**** [“Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, however, wanted to reestablish daiva-varṇāśrama. In daiva-varṇāśrama there cannot be acknowledgement of social status according to birthright because in Bhagavad-gītā it is said that the determining considerations are guṇa and karma, one’s qualities and work. It is this daiva-varṇāśrama that should be established all over the world to continue a perfect society for Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This may be astonishing to foolish critics, but it is one of the functions of a Kṛṣṇa conscious society.” (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.1.24 purport)]

***** [Yes. Striyo śūdrāḥ tathā vaiśyās (Bhagavad-gītā 9.32). This striyā, generally they take it, “Even she is prostitute,” striyā. Te ‘pi yānti parāṁ gatim: “They can also go back to home, back to Godhead.” Māṁ hi pārtha… If he takes Kṛṣṇa very seriously, then everything is possible. No impediment. Ahaituky apratihatā. Kṛṣṇa… Devotional service is so strong that it cannot be checked by any material impediments. The smārtas, they are thinking like that, “How these mlecchas and yavanas can become a brāhmaṇa?” But they do not know that by Kṛṣṇa consciousness one can jump over. Māyām etāṁ taranti te. Daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī mama māyā duratyayā (Bhagavad-gītā 7.14). Māyā is very strong. Therefore there are gradual process. Varṇāśrama-dharma, karma-tyāga, this, that, so many things, pious activities, rituals. But this is the process, step by step, to cross over māyā. But Kṛṣṇa said, mām eva ye prapadyante māyām etāṁ taranti te. Anyone who surrenders to Kṛṣṇa sincerely, immediately he crosses over. As Kṛṣṇa says in another place, ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi (Bhagavad-gītā 18.66), “I’ll do immediately.” So māyā means pāpa. Unless one is sinful, he cannot be in māyā. So if one surrenders, then he, means, immediately crosses over māyā. So these smārta brāhmaṇas, they consider this thing. They are thinking, “How a person born in other families, they can become brāhmaṇa?” (Śrīla Prabhupāda, Morning Walk, February 9, 1976)]

****** [After Śrīman Mahāprabhu, His līlā-parikaras (eternal pastime associates) such as the six Gosvāmīs, Śrī Lokanātha and Bhūgarbha, and later Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja, Śrī Narottama Ṭhākura, and Śrī Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura were naturally niṣkiñcana paramahaṁsa Vaiṣṇavas. There was no need for them to wear sannyāsa-veśa (saffron cloth). Secondly, Śrīman Mahāprabhu had performed the līlā of wearing sannyāsa-veśa. Thus, considering themselves to be worthless, lowly and unqualified, these mahātmās did not wear sannyāsa-veśa to show honour and respect to the veśa of Sriman Mahāprabhu and also to maintain their own identities as servants under the shelter of His lotus feet. On the other hand, to express veneration for the niṣkiñcana paramahaṁsa-veśa of the associates of Śrīman Mahāprabhu and, under their guidance to preach His message throughout the entire world, many akiñcanā Vaiṣṇavas on the path of rāgānuga-bhajana, holding the paramahaṁsa-veśa upon their heads, have accepted a position below their worshipable superiors by wearing the saffron cloth of the sannyāsa-aśrama which is included within the system of varṇāśrama-dharma. These two customs, each having their own place, are both exquisitely beautiful and also completely in accordance with siddhānta. Today śuddha-hari-bhakti has been, is being, and will continue to be, preached and spread throughout the world by these mahāpuruṣas (great perfected saints) who wear this second type of niṣkiñcana sannyāsī-veśa. (Five Essential Essays)]

[“When Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura saw that many bābājīs were now bogus, that they were with widow mātājīs and producing sons, he became furious and said we will again accept the same saffron cloth of others like Rāmanujācārya, Madhvācārya, Mahāprabhu, and Īśvara Purīpāda. He then preached everywhere in the world. At that time, those family persons who were of loose character and had no status in society honoured these bogus bābājīs. That is why Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura re-introduced the reddish cloth and sannyāsa. Presently, those who are bogus persons but were previously in the Gauḍīya Maṭha have become lusty and have thus been kicked out from the Gauḍīya Maṭha. Now they have become bābājīs.” (Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja, Lecture, June 10, 2001)]

******* [“By calling Nityānanda Prabhu a bhraṣṭa avadhūta (a rejected paramahaṁsa), Advaita Ācārya Prabhu in a sense accepted Nityānanda Prabhu as a paramahaṁsa. In other words, Nityānanda Prabhu had nothing to do with the rules governing smārta-brāhmaṇas. Thus under pretense of condemning Him, Advaita Ācārya was actually praising Him. In the avadhūta stage, the paramahaṁsa stage, which is the supermost stage, one may appear to be viṣayī, on the platform of sense gratification, but in actuality he has nothing to do with sense gratification. At that stage, a person sometimes accepts the symbols and dress of a sannyāsī and sometimes does not. Sometimes he dresses like a householder.” (Śrī Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā 3.85 purport)]

******** [At that moment there appeared the powerful son of Vyāsadeva (Śrī Śukadeva Gosvāmī), who travelled over the earth disinterested and satisfied with himself. He did not manifest any symptoms of belonging to any social order or status of life. He was surrounded with women and children, and he dressed as if others had neglected him. (Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 1.19.25)]

Source: Purebhakti.com

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Unless indicated differently, all verse translations and quotes are from the books by Śrīla Prabhupāda (Vedabase.com)