The following is an interview with Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja in Murwillumbah, Australia, on January 15, 2000

 

(Śrīmatī Satyarūpa devī dāsī is a disciple of Śrīla Prabhupāda. In January 2000, she attended University to get her PhD in religious study. She asked Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja many essential questions about our guru-paramparā – past, present, and future. He was so pleased with her that he requested her to be always on tour with his travelling party)

Satyarūpa dāsī: Can you tell me about the development of Gauḍīya Maṭha, maybe from the time you joined? And can you explain how and why it branched out into different maṭhas?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I will tell you all things, beginning from where Gauḍīya Maṭha originally came.

Satyarūpa dāsī: You told me in one darśana that the Gauḍīya Maṭha came from Brahmā.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: But now I will tell you more. Those who follow Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, especially those who are from a place called Gauḍa, those devotees are called Gauḍīya. There are five Gauḍas, and each is between two rivers. The first is Punjab, located between the Sindhu and Yamunā rivers; the other is between the Ganges and Yamunā. Another is between Ganges and Guṇḍāka, the fourth is between two other rivers, and the fifth is Bengal. Of the five, the prominent Gauḍa is Bengal.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Why?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Because Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu appeared there. He practised love and affection for Kṛṣṇa in parakīyā mood. Do you know what is meant by parakīyā? It is paramour love (transcendental unwedded love). In India, there are so many sampradāyas (lineages of devotional service), and they do not know about this. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu discovered it from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam.

Satyarūpa dāsī: What specific verses are evidence of this in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja:

pati-sutānvaya-bhrātṛ-bāndhavān
ativilaṅghya te ’nty acyutāgatāḥ
gati-vidas tavodgīta-mohitāḥ
kitava yoṣitaḥ kas tyajen niśi

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.31.16)

[Dear Acyuta, You know very well why we have come here. Who but a cheater like You would abandon young women who come to see Him in the middle of the night, enchanted by the loud song of His flute? Just to see You, we have completely rejected our husbands, children, ancestors, brothers and other relatives.]

When Kṛṣṇa played His flute on the full-moon night, all the gopīs left their husbands, children, friends, fathers, mothers, and all material considerations, and they went to Kṛṣṇa. Their husbands were at home; therefore, this is parakīyā. Although the gopīs had husbands, Kṛṣṇa was their beloved. They had no relation with their husbands from the start; Yogamāyā arranged it so their husbands never touched them. She made artificial wives, and the husbands used to be with them. Those who accept this and follow Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s teachings are called Gauḍīya.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Like the false Sītā?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Yes, something like that. There are so many ślokas in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam:

na pāraye ’haṁ niravadya-saṁyujāṁ
sva-sādhu-kṛtyaṁ vibudhāyuṣāpi vaḥ
yā mābhajan durjara-geha-śṛṅkhalāḥ
saṁvṛścya tad vaḥ pratiyātu sādhunā

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.32.22)

[I am not able to repay My debt for your spotless service, even within a lifetime of Brahmā. Your connection with Me is beyond reproach. You have worshipped Me, cutting off all domestic ties, which are difficult to break. Therefore, please let your own glorious deeds be your compensation.]

Kṛṣṇa is telling the gopīs, “I cannot repay you. Your love and affection for Me and our meetings are so pure and transcendental that I cannot repay you. You have given up your husbands and all other relatives for Me, but I cannot give up anyone. I cannot give up my father and mother. I have so many devotees, and I cannot give them up. Therefore, I cannot repay you.”

The gopīs had left their husbands, and therefore, this verse is another evidence of parakīyā-bhāva. This understanding was discovered and preached in this world by Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Those who follow this idea of Mahāprabhu, under the guidance of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī and Śrīla Raghunātha dāsa Gosvāmī, are Gauḍīyas. Those who do not follow are not Gauḍīyas, even if they live in that area. Those who maintain this idea that the gopīs are parakīyā, who want to develop the same mood and are doing bhajana for that end, are Gauḍīyas. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī is Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. He is doing bhajana externally in the body of Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī and internally as Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. Externally, he is chanting and remembering as Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, and internally, he is serving in his siddha-deha (spiritual form of a gopī) as Śrī Rūpa Mañjarī. There, as a gopī, mañjarī, he is serving Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa conjugal.

This is the idea of Gauḍīya, and those who follow this are Gauḍīyas. It is coming especially from Śrī Mādhavendra Purī, then Śrī Īśvara Purī, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, Śrī Nityānanda, Śrī Svarūpa Dāmodara, down to my Gurudeva, Śrīla Bhakti Prajñāna Keśava Gosvāmī Mahārāja.

Satyarūpa dāsī: But there is a gap there from Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: No, you should accept everyone in our guru-paramparā: Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, the Ṣaḍ (six) Gosvāmīs, and Śrī Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī. Then the three: Śrī Śyāmānanda Prabhu, Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura and Śrīla Śrīnivāsa Ācārya. Then afterwards, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura, Śrī Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, Śrīla Jagannātha dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja and all others. There is no gap. There are so many ācāryas.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Have you written about this?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Everything is written. Then Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura and Śrīla Gaurakiśora dāsa Bābājī Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, my Gurudeva and also Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja – your Prabhupāda. And then it is coming to us.

How has the guru-paramparā become so many? Because it descended from the six Gosvāmīs, then to Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja Gosvāmī, and then to Śrīla Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura. They preached all over Bengal and made so many disciples. It was not by quarrelling that their centres manifested everywhere. It was all coming through paramparā. Some came from Nityānanda Prabhu, some from His wife, Śrīmatī Jāhnavā Ṭhākurāṇī, and some from Śrīnivāsa Ācārya, Śrī Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura and others. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī never made any formal śiṣyas (disciples). He made only one śiṣya – Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī. Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī also did not make any formal disciples, but he adopted devotees like Śrīnivāsa, Śyāmānanda and Narottama dāsa, and he taught them all the spiritual truths. From these three came so many groups: Śyāmānanda’s group, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s group, Śrīnivāsa Ācārya’s group, and the group of Vīracandra (Vīrabhadra), the son of Jāhnavā and Nityānanda Prabhu. Their branches and sub-branches spread everywhere.

After Baladeva Vidyābhūṣaṇa, there was a bad time for Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas. The preaching stopped, and all learned persons lost faith in Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavism. Some developed like the Sahajiyās, doing ‘bhajana’ by taking others’ wives and saying, “This is parakīyā-bhāva.” Many bad things were mixed into this. Then Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura came and saw that so many amalgamations had come. He, therefore, began to preach, and when Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura came, Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura told him, “O, preach my books here and there.” And he began to do that.

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura had so many very qualified disciples. Among them our Guru Mahārāja was very prominent; and others were also, like pūjyapāda Śrīla Śrīdhara Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhakti Vilāsa Tīrtha, Śrīla Śrautī Mahārāja, Śrīla Giri Mahārāja, Śrīla Vana Mahārāja, Śrīla Vaikhānasa Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhāratī Mahārāja, Śrīla Mādhava Mahārāja, Śrīla Siddhāntī Mahārāja, and so many others. And they established their maṭhas here and there.

After Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, there was a person named Ananta Vāsudeva Prabhu. He was very qualified, but he became charmed by a lady devotee and left his sannyāsa. They married, and after that, all became against him and said, “Now you should enter family life. This behaviour is like that of a dog who eats something and again vomits it.” At that time, he was very powerful. He had money and so many disciples, and he began to torture his god-brothers, the disciples of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, who opposed him.

Satyarūpa dāsī: What was the cause of the friction?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: It came about because he was attracted to his lady disciple and married her. Everyone told him that in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam and other scriptures, it is written that such behaviour is not a good thing for Vaiṣṇavism. They said, “You should go with her and vacate your position as ācārya.” Everyone turned against him. At that time, he was very wealthy and had great power. His godbrothers, therefore, left his place and established their maṭhas here and there.

So there are many sections, and everyone besides him is in the paramparā. They are all like one. They sometimes assemble to have discussions. They also meet wherever there is an utsava (festival). Their preaching centres are in different places, but they are of the same opinion.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Was the falling of Ananta Vāsudeva Kṛṣṇa’s arrangement so that the Gauḍīya Maṭha will grow more?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Yes, that is right. We can reconcile it in this way. Otherwise, we could not have preached all over the world.

I know that we are all in one family, and the family master is Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, who taught that we should all serve Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. Though our preaching centres are in different places, we are one family. I also think that you are part of our family.

Satyarūpa dāsī: I think so too. We are all one family.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Any more questions? Are you satisfied?

Satyarūpa dāsī: Yes, I have many questions. Can I ask you a personal question? How do you deal with the antagonism? How are you responding to some of the ISKCON leaders being against you?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I am very happy. I know that they are my children. Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja has told me to save them, and I know that they are ignorant. I want to help them in all ways. Little children may make some disturbances, but the mother or father does not take offence. I always try to help them, and I am very happy. I know that they are my children. They may do anything to me, and I never take any offence. I am happy that I am helping you. I want to help everyone, including those who have left. I have relations with so many who have fallen down. They are coming to me, and I am happy. I know they are like my younger brothers and sisters, my sons and daughters. I never feel anything when some people say things against me. They make so much bad propaganda, but I feel no disturbance. I become happy that by this propaganda, I will preach more.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Can you tell me something about your initiation?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: My initiation is like that of Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, like that of my Gurudeva, and like that of Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja – the same.

Satyarūpa dāsī: What does your initiation mean to you? What is the intrinsic meaning?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Initiation means the giving of a thick relation, a special relation with Kṛṣṇa, and the realization of ‘who am I.’ Regarding the word ‘dīkṣā’ in Sanskrit: in ‘di,’ divya-jñāna (the realization of one’s transcendental relationship with Kṛṣṇa) comes: “I am an eternal servant of Kṛṣṇa.” But there must be some deeper meaning of ‘eternal servant.’ In the line of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu and Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī, there are five kinds of relations with Kṛṣṇa. To give any of these relationships – this is initiation. Initiation is not given in a moment or a day. We admit the devotee in the ‘school’ of dīkṣā, and it may take so much time to realize all these things.

Satyarūpa dāsī: I heard that Śrīla Bhakti Pramoda Purī Mahārāja said that the person who the guru designates to perform his samādhi is his successor. Is that true?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: It is not necessarily true, but Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja told me to give him samādhi, and I did it. He had so much faith in me. I am not his uttara-adhikārī (successor). Actually, I am. Those falling down are his successors outwardly, but spiritually and transcendentally, I am his successor.

But you should also understand that an elevated devotee may not be present when giving samādhi. He may be a more elevated disciple and the successor, no harm, but anyone else can give samādhi. Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja told me to do it, but it may be that another ācārya has not told his successor, “You should give me samādhi.” Has Śrīla Purī Mahārāja himself told? I don’t know if he has said this.

Satyarūpa dāsī: I want to know if this is true or not.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I think it is not true. His successor is Bodhāyana Mahārāja, who is a good devotee, very humble and polite. But when the samādhi was given, he was not there. He was in another country. Others gave it. My godbrothers came, and others came, and they all gave samādhi. Then, after some time, Bodhayāna Mahārāja came; there was no harm. It is not siddhānta that he who gives samādhi will be the successor. So many devotees came from Devānanda Gauḍīya Maṭha, and others also came to give samādhi to Śrīla Bhakti Pramoda Purī Mahārāja. But they will not be the successor. His successor will be his disciple whom he believes in and has instructed.

Usually, the guru never tells who his successor will be. Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja never told who would be his successor. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Prabhupāda never told who would be his successor. He knew that “Someone will come who is very near and dear to me, and who knows all siddhānta.” No one can ever make anyone a guru by appointment. His qualities will make him a guru.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Mahārāja did not nominate a successor. So, how did it come about that Ananta Vāsudeva became his successor?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: It is not the transcendental line that anyone can make someone else a guru. It may be that if one is so qualified, Gurudeva selects him and says, “After me, you will be the successor.” This is one line. However, the more essential and prominent line is that anyone serving Gurudeva fully, preaching so much in his line after his departure, and making his Gurudeva very prominent is a successor. He will preach the same line.

Prabhupāda Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura never told my Gurudeva, “You should be my successor.” Never. But he became so, as did Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja. My Gurudeva never appointed me, yet I became so. I am preaching worldwide, and so many are accepting me. So it depends on quality. No one made Śrīla Prabhupāda Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja, yet he became prominent worldwide. Rāmānuja was not made ācārya. Do you know Rāmānuja? He took sannyāsa himself, and Madhvācārya also did this. He was not given sannyāsa by anyone else.

So we should follow this thought. Who made Śrīla Śukadeva Gosvāmī ācārya? Śrī Vyāsadeva never said, “You are my successor.” Kṛṣṇa will arrange that those who do bhakti will be ācāryas.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja knew what the qualifications of his disciples were – that they may fall down, they may give him poison, and so many things. So, he never declared anyone as his successor.

Satyarūpa dāsī: When the time comes that you must depart, how would you like to see things continue?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I know the system from the beginning. No one made Śrī Nārada Ṛṣi ācārya. He who manifests very good qualities and serves his Gurudeva is ācārya. I am not worried about this. If I see someone, I will select him. Otherwise, without being selected, he will become ācārya by his qualities, and all are bound to obey him. We know that Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī is our complete root ācārya, and he never initiated anyone. Still, all accept him.

Satyarūpa dāsī: So we can get śikṣā from Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Yes. This is the eternal line. No one knew I would preach worldwide and glorify my guru, the paramparā, and this parakīyā mood. But Kṛṣṇa can do anything, even from a dry straw. I am unqualified, but my Gurudeva accepted me; my entire guru-paramparā accepted me as ācārya. I never thought, “I am ācārya.” Never. I don’t have such self-conception. I am not ācārya, but all tell me that I am.

Satyarūpa dāsī: How do you feel about the Australian devotees? What are your feelings about them? What is your experience, and how do you feel the preaching is growing here?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: I know that in all preaching the root is Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja Prabhupāda. Only by his mercy is everyone preaching. When I preach, all know that “Oh, he is in line of Śrīla Svāmījī, Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Svāmī Mahārāja; he is preaching in his line.” Everywhere in the world, except in India, Śrīla Svāmījī did this, being one hand of Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Gosvāmī Ṭhākura. He also did it in India, while others were in India.

I know that everywhere, there are so many disciples of various sections – like pūjyapāda Govinda Mahārāja, myself, Śrīla Purī Mahārāja, Śrīla Bhakti Vallabha Tīrtha Mahārāja. All are making disciples, but I think we are in one family. However, I see that so many sections don’t like each other. They fight among themselves and also with others. They even fight with their wives and divorce them. Some disciples divorce their guru. But we don’t like that. We should try to help each other.

There is some envy. The disciples of certain gurus never come to me. Those gurus fear somewhat, but I don’t fear. I know that they are in one family. They fear, “Oh when he (Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja) will come, he will take all my disciples and attract them.” But I don’t want to do that. I want to help all as a śikṣā-guru helps. They should understand this and not quarrel; otherwise, their preaching would be adversely affected.

We should think this way: “He can help my disciples, and I should help his disciples.” During Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu’s time, there was no division like this – one could come, and another could not. All used to go to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; all used to go to Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī. I want it to be like that.

Though I know that sometimes disciples may be weak and give up bhakti, I want to help them so that they can serve again. And I am doing that. I am calling those who left and inspiring them to serve their Gurudeva. I am helping without consideration of caste or creed.

Satyarūpa dāsī: Why is this fear here? Why is there fear?

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Because of ignorance. In Vaiṣṇavism, there should be no envy. That is why, although ISKCON is very big, there is a lack of harmony among the members. They don’t give honour to their elders, and elders do not give all their love and affection to juniors. We should try. Otherwise, a dark age will come again, and everything will be ruined. I think that if I were not here, going here and there, then sahajiyā groups who think, “Oh, we are Caitanyaites,” would increase. I want a revolution like this: we should come to the real path, in the real sense. Kṛṣṇa will arrange for anyone to come after me; after that, anyone else will come, and this will not be ruined. The world will be ruined, but this line is eternal. Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura has said that this line is eternal. Someone from any group will come.

Satyarūpa dāsī: You mentioned that Rāmānuja took sannyāsa by himself.

Śrīla Bhaktivedānta Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja: Himself. Rāmanujācārya wanted to take sannyāsa and preach our bhakti cult. However, before he arrived at the feet of his guru, his guru passed away. His disciples were taking him on a palanquin to give him samādhi. Rāmanujācārya met them on the way and asked, “Where are you going, and whom are you carrying on the palanquin?” They replied, “He is Yāmunācārya, and he has passed away from this world.”

Rāmānuja requested, “Stop here. I want to see Gurudeva. When they set down the palanquin, he asked, “Why are his three fingers closed?” It is a general rule that when someone takes birth, his fingers are closed, and when he passes away his fingers are open. Seeing the closed fingers, Rāmānuja was surprised. “Why are these fingers in an unnatural way?” Surprised, everyone told him, “None of us had seen this before.” Then Rāmanujācārya said, “I shall take sannyāsa right now.” The first finger opened and became straight. Then he said, “I shall compose a commentary on Vedānta-sūtra.” The second finger opened and became straight. Then he said, “O Gurudeva, I will preach your mission everywhere. I will preach all over India, distribute my books, and defeat the Māyāvāda philosophy.” When the last finger became straight, Rāmanujācārya proclaimed, “My Gurudeva is not dead. He is still here. He is in samādhi.” The disciples told him, “You should give him samādhi.” Rāmānuja took sannyāsa there at that time, and then the disciples took him to give samādhi. After this, Rāmanujācārya went to the temple of Śrī Raṅgam and served all his elder godbrothers for twelve years.

He served some for one month, some for two months, some for three months, some for four months, etc. And (in his human-like pastimes) he received blessings and knowledge from them all. After this, he became ācārya. Rāmanujācārya was so qualified. He wanted to teach the world that an advanced devotee is not proud.

Source: Purebhakti.com

Image(s) made possible by Pixabay.com, Krishnapath.org and/or Bhaktiart.net
Unless indicated differently, all verse translations and quotes are from the books by Śrīla Prabhupāda (Vedabase.com)